Obviously this is extremely bad and dumb and performative, but putting that aside: who is going to buy them at the needed scale? They're custom purpose-built vehicles for mail delivery, not exactly something I see the marketplace absorbing.
Scrappers? UPS and Fedex would need bigger vehicles than this. Maybe some other country's postal service would take advantage of it and buy them up, but that's about it as far as I can see.
It's all part of a much larger plan to cripple the USPS so republicans can justify outsourcing mail delivery to the private sector. Take a great investment the USPS made that would decrease health premiums (because it's so much better ergonomically for drivers) and lower operating costs, and throw it into a fire. Now USPS has to continue to maintain the LLVs, even as they continue to fall apart and the drivers suffer.
>UPS and Fedex would need bigger vehicles than this.
I live in the SF Bay Area and i've definitely seen small vans and such used for delivery by the major shippers. they don't always use the standard trucks.
I would be a little surprised -- Amazon already has their own custom electric delivery trucks, and FedEx and UPS could probably order these from Oshkosh directly if they wanted. These vehicles are also optimized for mail, less for parcels. None of these players need to play backroom shenanigans.
That said, blatant corruption is just the name of the game at this point in America, so who knows.
no. if you look at Oshkosh's behaviour according to the article you would immediately know this isn't going to be the case. the thievery has already happened.
Maybe they’d be bought as last-mile vehicles for FedEx contractors or similar?
Selling them off really doesn’t make sense, though. I understand that the USPS operates in many areas that aren’t conducive to EVs and that ICE models are needed there, but these electric models would be extremely well-suited for urban areas where drivers are making frequent stops given how poorly ICEs perform in constant-stop-and-go scenarios.
FedEx has a supplier for EVs already. So does Amazon. They probably don't want some oddball trucks in their fleet. Although it would be a nice favor for FedEx or someone to keep the batteries warm until a more sane administration offers to buy them back.
Exactly its more likely its a push to have USPS less efficient and less stable, so that in a year or so they can be like "see its useless we need to privatize it we told you the whole time" (this thing we did is totally proof we were right before) lol
If most other last mile delivery companies (e.g. UPS) weren't already commissioning their own delivery vans, then I would say that any one of them could pick up the slack.`
I don't think there is any desire to find a legitimate buyer. The bill wants to say "throw them into a landfill" but the architects are trying to sound thrifty. Stated reasoning: "Stop wasting the government's money on useless initiatives. Sell these white elephants and ask employees to use their own car!" Actual reasoning: "We need to burn more oil. There are campaign donations on the line and the midterms are going to be very tough for us. Big Electricity does not donate to campaigns and we can't take the money we save on fuel and use it for ads."
You're putting way too much thought into this. The purpose of this provision is to appease donors. If these get sold for scrap, that is a feature. Did someone say there is no quid pro quo?
Apparently, only 93 electric vehicles have been delivered. And the 3,000 originally expected. [1]
I suppose the headline could’ve been: “GOP tax bill compels USPS to sell its 93 delivery EVs”. But let’s be honest, that wouldn’t get many clicks nor be on the first page of HN.
What's the story with the rest of the contract? You don't normally get a vehicle manufacturer to start up a custom line without some contract in place wrt minimum orders (or paying out the wazoo).
The NGDV program was issued under IDIQ terms, which in this case means the government promised to order at least 10,019 vehicles over 10 years. There will have been a clause about termination for convenience that the government will invoke here. Oshkosh will then take them to court to ask for the remainder and the court will find that they're owed somewhere between 0-100% of it.
Over the past few years i've become friends with my neighborhood's USPS mailman.
While it doesn't get as hot here as other parts of the country, it's pretty awful what he needs to deal with once temps reach 80+. his truck is like sitting in a metal can. he does what he can to park in shady areas but otherwise he's basically being cooked when he needs to go inside to get mail or drive it from stop to stop.
FWIW there are ICE and EV versions of the new trucks... There are a lot of benefits for the EV version, but I think both have AC. Not sure idling the engine to run the AC would be feasible, though. "Idling" an EV to run the AC would have much less "fuel" impact.
I imagine their argument is that these are a waste of money and EVs are completely impractical. But that doesn't really square with big players in delivery voluntarily adopting EVs, and the physics around delivery driving patterns that really really benefits EVs.
i dont know what the republicans are saying but FTA:
> Oshkosh encountered delays and engineering problems during early manufacturing runs, and disagreements — and accusations of corporate dishonesty — among executives plagued the production process, The Washington Post reported in December.
> Oshkosh was supposed to have delivered about 3,000 vehicles by the end of 2024. Instead it had provided roughly 100 and raised its prices as the Postal Service ordered additional EVs.
sounds like cancelling should be agreed upon bipartisanly; partisan divide maybe on whether or not it's worthwhile to restart the procurement process.
This is The Omnibus Bill (tm) of the administration -- this provision could be stricken during reconciliation, but respectfully I think it's close enough to passing that it's a valid topic of discussion.
At first impression this does seem pretty silly to cancel the project so late after most of the costs have already been incurred. Auctioning the vehicles will certainly not recover anything close to their cost, to say nothing of the other infrastructure that has been built out and will essentially have to be scrapped.
On the other hand, that could be a "sunk cost" fallacy, if the future costs of these bespoke EVs is higher than the cost of just using a standard commercial utility vehicle. Not saying that it is, and the article really doesn't explore this other than to quote Rand Paul as saying that the provision “aims to cut unnecessary costs and focus USPS on delivering mail and not achieving the environmental initiatives pushed by the Biden Administration.”
Wisconsin folks should be seething about this. These vehicles were created by Oshkosh Corporation and are one of the more successful public/private "redesigns" in recent memory.
What's strange about them? They're a major contract vehicle builder and familiar with building vehicles for government (defense) contracts.
Like most contract vehicle builders, they put together parts from major suppliers. Bosch makes the EV motor and most likely supplies the control module and what not too.
Do you have any background on this company that I might’ve missed?
Have they been featured or ranked in any reports or articles suggesting they’re a strong EV play?
I’m asking because I’ve been following the EV space pretty closely. Mainly from a business perspective and I’m genuinely curious how this one flew under my radar.
Please don’t take this as dismissive of your opinion; I’m just trying to learn and would really appreciate any additional info you can share.
Putting some batteries and a motor on a truck chassis with a ~70 mile range doesn't require a strong EV play.
Getting a 10 year vehicle contract for the USPS with 2wd, 4wd, ICE and EV options requires a strong government vehicle contracting play.
Oshkosh makes lots of vehicles for the military. And also a fair number of niche commercial trucks. They know how to do the requisition process, and they know how to assemble vehicles.
Grumman had the last 10 year vehicle contract for the USPS; also a big military contract vehicle supplier. Grumman built the LLV on a base of GM parts, and Oshkosh is building the NGDV on a base of Ford parts, but otherwise, pretty similar deal.
Rivian, GM, and Ford all have experience making fleet EVs. If the government procurement process is too hard for them to deal with, maybe the process is the problem. Giving it to one of those manufacturers would help them achieve economies of scale and be more competitive in the consumer and private sector fleet markets. (Sure the vehicle is a very different format, but the drivetrains and battery would be nearly indistinguishable).
Oshkosh is working in partnership with Ford. The ICE build uses a Ford drive train, and there's a connection to the Ford Transit. This is how most contract commercial vehicles are built for the US markets, take a cutaway truck/van from usually Ford or GM, and put the needed body on it. Sometimes even the cutaway cab is too much, there's often a chassis+engine only package, and sometimes a custom chassis is needed.
GM had entered the procurement process, but left early on. Rivian had no track record when the procurement process began.
No argument that the process is long, and probably has problems, but I don't think it's strange that Oshkosh made it through the process.
The ICE and EV models are supposed to be pretty similar other than the drivetrain. It may be Ford is supplying the EV chassis with the Bosch motor, or they may supply the EV with no motor. Bosch is a major automative supplier, so it wouldn't be unexpected for Ford to integrate Bosch parts.
The postmen and women love this design. Plus they’re cheaper to run and clean. I hate this administration and group of people like nothing I’ve hated before.
Checking the news every day and seeing whole new categories of open corruption, inane sabre-rattling, and petty shattering of anything that works well is just exhausting.
Not sure how to fix this, but it's gotta happen somehow.
> I hate this administration and group of people like nothing I’ve hated before.
I'm in the same boat. Politically / culturally I'm pretty centrist, and historically I've found things to like and dislike about both parties' governance. (G.W. Bush was the first administration I ever hated. But I'm mostly willing to write GW Bush off as a moron, and his fellow Republicans as inept.)
With Trump 2, for the first time I actually loath the entire Republican party, and the voters who support him. I'm having a very difficult time believing anything praiseworthy behind their motives.
It's the first time I truly fear for the immediate future of the country. I'm sure this says as much about me as it does about the Republicans. But if there are many others like me, this can't be a good sign of what's to come.
Same. I’ve generally been a little left but I’ve always been able to at least understand the conservative viewpoint even if I didn’t agree. With this admin though, I can’t for the life of me comprehend how anybody can think this is ok. For fucks sake there are basically secret police arresting people on the streets with no due process. The rhetoric that comes out of Trump and his admins mouths genuinely disgust me. I’ve disagreed with other administrations, but have never felt straight up fear for the future like l do now. I hate this admin and I hate the voters that put him in power, people that still want him in power even now with the blatant corruption on display daily. I know it’s not right to feel this way, I hate feeling this way, but here we are.
"Kids in cages" was a slogan that grossly distorted holding people in facilities (not unlike jail, admittedly) while processing their asylum claims rather than just letting them free to roam the country, unable to legally work. A situation which led to claiming asylum at absurd rates and taxing the asylum courts that weren't designed to be abused.
As a part of that, children were separated from adults until they could verify their custody. "Kids in cages" was really just trying to stop asylum abuse while also keeping an eye out for human trafficking of children.
The effect of that slogan, a complete knee jerk reversal by the Biden administration of those policies not unlike what we see here with the EVs, led to the horrible border situation that played a major role in Trump's second victory.
I know where many of my neighbors stand on issues, and if they could get away with killing people they disagree with for fun, they would. There has been a multi decade conditioning that a certain part of the country is not just people that think differently, but the enemy within that must be purged.
I don't think your feelings are necessarily 'unjustified' - because, well... shit's crazy - but I don't think hatred is going to be lead anywhere productive. And I think the assumption that hatred stems from - that 70 million people or so voted for this because they're racist stupid people - is also problematic.
I think people need to start asking in at least some good faith why so many people voted for this. If your answer really is that they're just racist and stupid... then I would encourage you to consider whether your opinion is more informed from social media and news than meeting actual people.
unfortunately, there are millions of people for whom the cruelty is the point. the attacks on LGBTQ people, on hispanic people, on women, on anyone non-white just prove that people really do want these hateful cruel regulations, against anyone who is not what they deem as "american"
as far as meeting "actual people"-- yes, there are definitely people who are anti-gay anti-trans anti-women pro-war pro-hate pro-"america" and they are pretty gross, authoritarian, and fascist-leaning, and to me that's not what america is about.
saying that everyone's fear is made up is just coming from a place where white well-off christian people just don't see problems and that's pretty sad
Hatred is the appropriate response to evil and there is nothing that clarifies Good and Evil like the richest, deadliest, most powerful entity in the entire history of known life aligning itself and its resources towards eradicating you and your peers.
If you are driven to hate this administration, that is a good thing. They are evil, the rebirth of the exact evil identified in the Nazis: a total lack of empathy. Indeed, they claim empathy -- the most essential human emotion -- is a sin.
When you find burning hatred clouding your judgment, sit in it and know that your anger will protect you from injustice (that is the purpose of the emotion). Remind yourself that hate and anger cannot yield creation, and creation is the light of god that suffuses all things. Destruction is a terrible yet inevitable end that should only be induced to protect the weak and ameliorate suffering, so be just and resolute when you seek it.
Fear and hatred are powerful emotions that cause most humans' higher reasoning to shut off. Right wing media has been peddling both for over a half century. So yes, a significant fraction of the Republican voting base are ignorant (maybe not stupid so much as generally misinformed) and racist (at least to the point that openly racist rhetoric is not disqualifying in primaries/elections). Additionally, a large part of the base has proven itself quite gullible with regards to conspiracy theories and other (generally quite obvious) disinformation, especially when they play on existing fears/biases (e.g., schools turning their kids trans).
That isn't to say that Democrat voters are perfect, either. There's certainly a significant undercurrent of left-wing media that is built on fear and hatred - one only need to see how well conditioned women are nowadays to believe that every man they see wants to harm/rape them or how men spending time around children are presumed pedophiles - but it's not quite as prevalent and certainly not as targeted at political affiliation.
It's completely fair to point out that Democrats often fail to address issues facing average people, or when they do, it's done poorly. That's sad, and it needs to change. However, where I get confused is how Republican policy almost universally harms the average person, and yet they get a free pass, even to the degree that I've seen a large cohort of people blame the Democrats for failing to save them from a bad Republican policy/action without passing any of the blame to the Republicans that passed it (e.g., tariffs, DOGE cuts, etc.).
It pains me to see the anemic Democrat response to some of the batshit insane stuff the Republicans do (especially now), but I fear it's largely because the Democratic party is just as much owned and operated by moneyed interests. While the Republicans are stabbing us to death, the best we can hope from the Democrats is to put down the knife without providing any bandages.
> If your answer really is that they're just racist and stupid... then I would encourage you to consider whether your opinion is more informed from social media and news than meeting actual people.
I mean... Yes? But there's a dynamic that's really hard to get past which is --
1. I do not actually think that half the country is racist and stupid, but most of my political interactions are unfortunately not with real people, they are with the media, a necessity if you want to stay informed, and if I want to hear the actual thoughts of the leaders of our country, it's not going to give me good impressions.
2. Many of the actual people in my life who are conservative have become MAGA-pilled, and do talk the same way folks do online. I'm a humanist, I empathize deep down with the nature of humans, and the death of small town / manufacturing America, etc. but I will say that I think that over time the lines between online and offline are blurring. Recently spent time with people I've known along time in meat space who talked about how smart and informed they were for knowing the "truth" about vaccines, how stupid the other side was for being in a ideological bubble. How terrible it was that 2 year olds were going to school and coming back Trans. And just in general the kind of anti-lib discourse that you would find on Twitter.
Sadly I think this idea that the extreme polarization of our country is limited to online discourse is becoming less and less true over time.
Anybody who considers themselves an American needs to be calling for a full stop to all activities of this administration, including impeachment and conviction. It's clear that our country and our government have many problems. They have festered over years, causing the frustration and pan-society feelings of disenfranchisement that drove Trumpism. But at this point it's clear that regardless of all the "4d chess", there is no reforming going on here - just a wholesale destruction and fire sale of our country at the behest of the same entrenched interests that have been pulling the strings the entire time. This is like going to the hospital for a broken bone, and they start calling surgeons to salvage your organs.
Okay, done. All I saw in the article is the usual hypocritical invocation of austerity to justify destruction and looting. Is there a substantive argument you would like to put forward why this action would be a good thing? Or is this just the same tired projection-based trend of implying that the people opposing the open fire sale of our country are the misinformed ones?
did you miss the part where the biggest contractor on the project was shady as fuck?
> Oshkosh encountered delays and engineering problems during early manufacturing runs, and disagreements — and accusations of corporate dishonesty — among executives plagued the production process, The Washington Post reported in December.
> Oshkosh was supposed to have delivered about 3,000 vehicles by the end of 2024. Instead it had provided roughly 100 and raised its prices as the Postal Service ordered additional EVs
the corporate "looting" as you put it, has already happened. and this part of the omnibus bill stems the bleeding. without any particular judgement on the rest of the omnibus bill, and yes, i believe there is probably looting in the rest of the bill.
you should support this part of the bill, if you believe the things that you claim to, such as not having the nation on open fire sale.
I didn't miss that. I'm just not going to get stuck focusing on mild criticism as a justification for causing another new problem, especially one that is seemingly worse. As I acknowledged in my original comment, our government has massive problems that have festered - like cost overruns and incompetent/incestuous management of private contractors. But despite whatever premium they extracted, they actually did deliver real vehicles which are in use right now. If the unit cost is ridiculous going forward, the USPS should put out a new bidding process for new vehicles compatible with the already built infrastructure. If the additional cost of EV vs gasoline is too high (which I doubt given all of the stop-starts), then they should hold off buying more and prioritize which areas they really make sense for. Whatever the case, they certainly should not be scrapping the current vehicles and the supporting infrastructure that was built!
Scrapping them does nothing to right that wrong (that money is gone), while setting up up the government for the next con job - the USPS still needs vehicles. The graft has not "happened" - it is happening, repeatedly. The only reason there are cost cutting measures in this bill is that it can avoid larger congressional processes by being plausibly "revenue neutral". This is one of the reasons why Trump's championed TCJA included tax increases in subsequent years - to be able to call the whole thing revenue neutral. In this context, whenever "savings" are being championed it is really just making a justification for giving it away somewhere else, and such "savings" are likely going to leave the government in a poorer position and having to spend even more later - akin to a high interest loan, but it's not even in terms of simple finances but rather diminished capabilities putting them even further at the mercy of the next set of contractors.
Based on Trump's shotgun approach of contradictory positions and statements that promised everything to everyone, plus the completely uninspiring alternative option, it's not clear what Americans actually voted for. I have talked to many people that sheepishly admit they voted for Trump, yet lament that what he is doing is not at all what they thought he would do.
So my point is that the opposition here is not just the usual partisan squabbling. People should not think that waiting for 2/4 years is going to passively solve the problem like the regular changing of the buntings. Rather people need to realize the speed and brazenness these societal arsonists are moving, and demand their congresspeople stand up (versus the stochastic death threats from the social media addled nutsos, bots, etc) and put a stop to this. Congress shouldn't be voting on a big ugly omnibus spending bill written by special interests, rather they should be browbeaten into focusing on impeachment.
> Congress shouldn't be voting on a big ugly omnibus spending bill written by special interests, rather they should be browbeaten into focusing on impeachment.
Not to mention standing up in Congress, and reminding each other to actually read what they're voting on, like MTG a few weeks ago realizing the effects of a bill she voted for but hadn't read.
You know that is offensively ableist to say that she hadn't read the bill just because she cannot read. They have the best children's illustrators on the job.
at least in the case of canoo the money was already wasted (see the history of canoo). the oshkosh vehicles are incredibly sensible, but very (irrationally?) unpopular and already beset with cost overruns. If you look at it, its not hard to guess why theyre unpopular. the success of the usmail ev program was by no means guaranteed; and if the us mail goes with a COTS unit (ev or otherwise), it's probably going to be more cost effective in any case.
Those who voted for this will think whatever their extremely distorted media diet will tell them. After all Trump/God works in mysterious ways, so they might ask: who knows what the grander plan behind it all is? The notion of Trump playing 4D chess is basically the same concept.
https://archive.is/4iBzE
Obviously this is extremely bad and dumb and performative, but putting that aside: who is going to buy them at the needed scale? They're custom purpose-built vehicles for mail delivery, not exactly something I see the marketplace absorbing.
Scrappers? UPS and Fedex would need bigger vehicles than this. Maybe some other country's postal service would take advantage of it and buy them up, but that's about it as far as I can see.
It's all part of a much larger plan to cripple the USPS so republicans can justify outsourcing mail delivery to the private sector. Take a great investment the USPS made that would decrease health premiums (because it's so much better ergonomically for drivers) and lower operating costs, and throw it into a fire. Now USPS has to continue to maintain the LLVs, even as they continue to fall apart and the drivers suffer.
>UPS and Fedex would need bigger vehicles than this.
I live in the SF Bay Area and i've definitely seen small vans and such used for delivery by the major shippers. they don't always use the standard trucks.
The skeptic in me thinks the provision was added at the behest of the future purchaser. Amazon? FedEx? UPS?
There’s a good chance this ends up as outright thievery.
I would be a little surprised -- Amazon already has their own custom electric delivery trucks, and FedEx and UPS could probably order these from Oshkosh directly if they wanted. These vehicles are also optimized for mail, less for parcels. None of these players need to play backroom shenanigans.
That said, blatant corruption is just the name of the game at this point in America, so who knows.
> Amazon already has their own custom electric delivery trucks
The vast majority of amazon's delivery vehicles are random vans, and amazon themselves doesn't own them; they franchise out like fedex ground does.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonDSPDrivers/comments/17l2gue/a...
no. if you look at Oshkosh's behaviour according to the article you would immediately know this isn't going to be the case. the thievery has already happened.
Maybe they’d be bought as last-mile vehicles for FedEx contractors or similar?
Selling them off really doesn’t make sense, though. I understand that the USPS operates in many areas that aren’t conducive to EVs and that ICE models are needed there, but these electric models would be extremely well-suited for urban areas where drivers are making frequent stops given how poorly ICEs perform in constant-stop-and-go scenarios.
FedEx has a supplier for EVs already. So does Amazon. They probably don't want some oddball trucks in their fleet. Although it would be a nice favor for FedEx or someone to keep the batteries warm until a more sane administration offers to buy them back.
Exactly its more likely its a push to have USPS less efficient and less stable, so that in a year or so they can be like "see its useless we need to privatize it we told you the whole time" (this thing we did is totally proof we were right before) lol
If there's only 93 of them as posted elsewhere in the thread, there's no scale needed, just two randos per state.
Plenty of people driving old usps mail jeeps, you can always find someone who wants to drive something weird.
If these are legal to drive on Europe I think they have a good market offshore.
Except for tarif war
If most other last mile delivery companies (e.g. UPS) weren't already commissioning their own delivery vans, then I would say that any one of them could pick up the slack.`
They'll rust in surplus lots until Burners buy them one at a time.
I don't think there is any desire to find a legitimate buyer. The bill wants to say "throw them into a landfill" but the architects are trying to sound thrifty. Stated reasoning: "Stop wasting the government's money on useless initiatives. Sell these white elephants and ask employees to use their own car!" Actual reasoning: "We need to burn more oil. There are campaign donations on the line and the midterms are going to be very tough for us. Big Electricity does not donate to campaigns and we can't take the money we save on fuel and use it for ads."
Amazon would take them at fire-sale prices.
I could see Amazon buying them.
Amazon has ~ 70,000 delivery vehicles. USPS has 93 EV vehicles.
Amazon already has custom Rivian vans that were designed for them.
You're putting way too much thought into this. The purpose of this provision is to appease donors. If these get sold for scrap, that is a feature. Did someone say there is no quid pro quo?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/23/politics/trump-senate-democra...
Apparently, only 93 electric vehicles have been delivered. And the 3,000 originally expected. [1]
I suppose the headline could’ve been: “GOP tax bill compels USPS to sell its 93 delivery EVs”. But let’s be honest, that wouldn’t get many clicks nor be on the first page of HN.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/12/11/biden-usp...
What's the story with the rest of the contract? You don't normally get a vehicle manufacturer to start up a custom line without some contract in place wrt minimum orders (or paying out the wazoo).
The NGDV program was issued under IDIQ terms, which in this case means the government promised to order at least 10,019 vehicles over 10 years. There will have been a clause about termination for convenience that the government will invoke here. Oshkosh will then take them to court to ask for the remainder and the court will find that they're owed somewhere between 0-100% of it.
> that wouldn’t get many clicks nor be on the first page of HN.
It probably would. Knowing the small number of vehicles involved makes the bill seem more capricious and stupid, not less.
Depends on the audience. You could write an article with the same facts but different subject and get a ton of clicks on Truth Social.
(Just to clarify: I’m speaking here from the perspective of a hacker or hustler. No politic or opinion on the actual subject.)
Over the past few years i've become friends with my neighborhood's USPS mailman.
While it doesn't get as hot here as other parts of the country, it's pretty awful what he needs to deal with once temps reach 80+. his truck is like sitting in a metal can. he does what he can to park in shady areas but otherwise he's basically being cooked when he needs to go inside to get mail or drive it from stop to stop.
these vehicles would've been a huge improvement.
FWIW there are ICE and EV versions of the new trucks... There are a lot of benefits for the EV version, but I think both have AC. Not sure idling the engine to run the AC would be feasible, though. "Idling" an EV to run the AC would have much less "fuel" impact.
All 100 of them?
FTA: "Instead it had provided roughly 100 and raised its prices as the Postal Service ordered additional EVs."
Alternative, non-paywalled story
https://electrek.co/2025/06/22/republicans-cant-stop-wasting...
But hardly unbiased.
Appropriately salty
There's no such thing as an unbiased news source.
Case in point: Washpo is owned by Bezos, who owns a huge stake in amazon, who could be a potential buyer for these vehicles.
Does electrek have that kind of conflict of interest?
Does anyone know the Republicans' steel-man argument in favor of this idea? (It wasn't clear if the article presented it.)
I'm ready to believe the absolute worst about their conduct, but experience tells me to always hear both sides of a story before judging.
I imagine their argument is that these are a waste of money and EVs are completely impractical. But that doesn't really square with big players in delivery voluntarily adopting EVs, and the physics around delivery driving patterns that really really benefits EVs.
I would imagine the real waste of money would be selling the vehicles you just got and breaking a contract for, presumably, a huge loss.
I mean, there's no way these vehicles are going to sell for even 20% of what USPS bought them for.
3 republicans are quoted in the article defending the proposal. Is there a better argument that the article didn’t quote?
i dont know what the republicans are saying but FTA:
> Oshkosh encountered delays and engineering problems during early manufacturing runs, and disagreements — and accusations of corporate dishonesty — among executives plagued the production process, The Washington Post reported in December.
> Oshkosh was supposed to have delivered about 3,000 vehicles by the end of 2024. Instead it had provided roughly 100 and raised its prices as the Postal Service ordered additional EVs.
sounds like cancelling should be agreed upon bipartisanly; partisan divide maybe on whether or not it's worthwhile to restart the procurement process.
“EVs bad, oil good.”
How can I steelman the argument for the guy with the knife about to stab me?
Proposed bills generally don't make good HN submissions, since usually nothing much comes of them:
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
(I'm not commenting on this bill, about which I don't know anything.)
This is The Omnibus Bill (tm) of the administration -- this provision could be stricken during reconciliation, but respectfully I think it's close enough to passing that it's a valid topic of discussion.
Ok, we'll make an exception in this case. Thanks!
At first impression this does seem pretty silly to cancel the project so late after most of the costs have already been incurred. Auctioning the vehicles will certainly not recover anything close to their cost, to say nothing of the other infrastructure that has been built out and will essentially have to be scrapped.
On the other hand, that could be a "sunk cost" fallacy, if the future costs of these bespoke EVs is higher than the cost of just using a standard commercial utility vehicle. Not saying that it is, and the article really doesn't explore this other than to quote Rand Paul as saying that the provision “aims to cut unnecessary costs and focus USPS on delivering mail and not achieving the environmental initiatives pushed by the Biden Administration.”
There's no careful reasoning here, just spite and cruelty.
Wisconsin folks should be seething about this. These vehicles were created by Oshkosh Corporation and are one of the more successful public/private "redesigns" in recent memory.
Oshkosh Corporation will get a new military contract :) No worries there.
Let’s be honest - Oshkosh Corporation is really strange choice for making EVs. Very strange choice.
What's strange about them? They're a major contract vehicle builder and familiar with building vehicles for government (defense) contracts.
Like most contract vehicle builders, they put together parts from major suppliers. Bosch makes the EV motor and most likely supplies the control module and what not too.
Do you have any background on this company that I might’ve missed? Have they been featured or ranked in any reports or articles suggesting they’re a strong EV play?
I’m asking because I’ve been following the EV space pretty closely. Mainly from a business perspective and I’m genuinely curious how this one flew under my radar.
Please don’t take this as dismissive of your opinion; I’m just trying to learn and would really appreciate any additional info you can share.
Putting some batteries and a motor on a truck chassis with a ~70 mile range doesn't require a strong EV play.
Getting a 10 year vehicle contract for the USPS with 2wd, 4wd, ICE and EV options requires a strong government vehicle contracting play.
Oshkosh makes lots of vehicles for the military. And also a fair number of niche commercial trucks. They know how to do the requisition process, and they know how to assemble vehicles.
Grumman had the last 10 year vehicle contract for the USPS; also a big military contract vehicle supplier. Grumman built the LLV on a base of GM parts, and Oshkosh is building the NGDV on a base of Ford parts, but otherwise, pretty similar deal.
Rivian, GM, and Ford all have experience making fleet EVs. If the government procurement process is too hard for them to deal with, maybe the process is the problem. Giving it to one of those manufacturers would help them achieve economies of scale and be more competitive in the consumer and private sector fleet markets. (Sure the vehicle is a very different format, but the drivetrains and battery would be nearly indistinguishable).
Oshkosh is working in partnership with Ford. The ICE build uses a Ford drive train, and there's a connection to the Ford Transit. This is how most contract commercial vehicles are built for the US markets, take a cutaway truck/van from usually Ford or GM, and put the needed body on it. Sometimes even the cutaway cab is too much, there's often a chassis+engine only package, and sometimes a custom chassis is needed.
GM had entered the procurement process, but left early on. Rivian had no track record when the procurement process began.
No argument that the process is long, and probably has problems, but I don't think it's strange that Oshkosh made it through the process.
Hmm does that apply to the EV drivetrain? I read elsewhere in this thread that Bosch was tapped for the EV model.
I would be curious the reasons that GM dropped out.
The ICE and EV models are supposed to be pretty similar other than the drivetrain. It may be Ford is supplying the EV chassis with the Bosch motor, or they may supply the EV with no motor. Bosch is a major automative supplier, so it wouldn't be unexpected for Ford to integrate Bosch parts.
Not sure why, they're making a fair amount across different platforms
https://www.oshkoshcorp.com/brands-innovations/electric-vehi...
What a bunch of corrupt, useless idiots.
waves hands "there is no quid pro quo"
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/23/politics/trump-senate-democra...
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The postmen and women love this design. Plus they’re cheaper to run and clean. I hate this administration and group of people like nothing I’ve hated before.
Checking the news every day and seeing whole new categories of open corruption, inane sabre-rattling, and petty shattering of anything that works well is just exhausting.
Not sure how to fix this, but it's gotta happen somehow.
> anything that works well
did we read the same article?
> I hate this administration and group of people like nothing I’ve hated before.
I'm in the same boat. Politically / culturally I'm pretty centrist, and historically I've found things to like and dislike about both parties' governance. (G.W. Bush was the first administration I ever hated. But I'm mostly willing to write GW Bush off as a moron, and his fellow Republicans as inept.)
With Trump 2, for the first time I actually loath the entire Republican party, and the voters who support him. I'm having a very difficult time believing anything praiseworthy behind their motives.
It's the first time I truly fear for the immediate future of the country. I'm sure this says as much about me as it does about the Republicans. But if there are many others like me, this can't be a good sign of what's to come.
Same. I’ve generally been a little left but I’ve always been able to at least understand the conservative viewpoint even if I didn’t agree. With this admin though, I can’t for the life of me comprehend how anybody can think this is ok. For fucks sake there are basically secret police arresting people on the streets with no due process. The rhetoric that comes out of Trump and his admins mouths genuinely disgust me. I’ve disagreed with other administrations, but have never felt straight up fear for the future like l do now. I hate this admin and I hate the voters that put him in power, people that still want him in power even now with the blatant corruption on display daily. I know it’s not right to feel this way, I hate feeling this way, but here we are.
One is almost forced to wonder if "hating" half of your country is part of the issue.
(not the parent)
It's not half, but it's clear about 30% of the country is belligerently demanding a dictatorship and the blood of people like me.
I don't truly hate anybody, but it would be downright foolish to try and pretend this isn't so.
It certainly seems like one party in particular does actively hate the other half and does whatever they can specifically to undermine them.
The fact that I have no idea what party you're referring to illustrates the issue
Would you mind providing examples of each party undermining one another?
This doesn't strike me as something that's a both sides issue, but I'd rather be informed than right, and perhaps I'll be surprised.
"Kids in cages" was a slogan that grossly distorted holding people in facilities (not unlike jail, admittedly) while processing their asylum claims rather than just letting them free to roam the country, unable to legally work. A situation which led to claiming asylum at absurd rates and taxing the asylum courts that weren't designed to be abused.
As a part of that, children were separated from adults until they could verify their custody. "Kids in cages" was really just trying to stop asylum abuse while also keeping an eye out for human trafficking of children.
The effect of that slogan, a complete knee jerk reversal by the Biden administration of those policies not unlike what we see here with the EVs, led to the horrible border situation that played a major role in Trump's second victory.
Damn that's bleak as fuck.
I know where many of my neighbors stand on issues, and if they could get away with killing people they disagree with for fun, they would. There has been a multi decade conditioning that a certain part of the country is not just people that think differently, but the enemy within that must be purged.
> One is almost forced to wonder if "hating" half of your country is part of the issue.
I agree. It's the first time I've ever had these thoughts and feelings, and it's not obvious how justified my hatred is.
I don't think your feelings are necessarily 'unjustified' - because, well... shit's crazy - but I don't think hatred is going to be lead anywhere productive. And I think the assumption that hatred stems from - that 70 million people or so voted for this because they're racist stupid people - is also problematic.
I think people need to start asking in at least some good faith why so many people voted for this. If your answer really is that they're just racist and stupid... then I would encourage you to consider whether your opinion is more informed from social media and news than meeting actual people.
unfortunately, there are millions of people for whom the cruelty is the point. the attacks on LGBTQ people, on hispanic people, on women, on anyone non-white just prove that people really do want these hateful cruel regulations, against anyone who is not what they deem as "american"
as far as meeting "actual people"-- yes, there are definitely people who are anti-gay anti-trans anti-women pro-war pro-hate pro-"america" and they are pretty gross, authoritarian, and fascist-leaning, and to me that's not what america is about.
saying that everyone's fear is made up is just coming from a place where white well-off christian people just don't see problems and that's pretty sad
At the very least racism and hatred is not a deal breaker for them. IMHO, in many situations that in of itself is racism.
Hatred is the appropriate response to evil and there is nothing that clarifies Good and Evil like the richest, deadliest, most powerful entity in the entire history of known life aligning itself and its resources towards eradicating you and your peers.
If you are driven to hate this administration, that is a good thing. They are evil, the rebirth of the exact evil identified in the Nazis: a total lack of empathy. Indeed, they claim empathy -- the most essential human emotion -- is a sin.
When you find burning hatred clouding your judgment, sit in it and know that your anger will protect you from injustice (that is the purpose of the emotion). Remind yourself that hate and anger cannot yield creation, and creation is the light of god that suffuses all things. Destruction is a terrible yet inevitable end that should only be induced to protect the weak and ameliorate suffering, so be just and resolute when you seek it.
It is ok to hate Neonazis, to say the least.
Thank you, I agree with all of your points.
> I would encourage you to consider whether your opinion is more informed from social media and news than meeting actual people
I wonder where all of these Trump voters get their opinion informed from. Are Trump voters known for meeting actual people and learning from them?
Fear and hatred are powerful emotions that cause most humans' higher reasoning to shut off. Right wing media has been peddling both for over a half century. So yes, a significant fraction of the Republican voting base are ignorant (maybe not stupid so much as generally misinformed) and racist (at least to the point that openly racist rhetoric is not disqualifying in primaries/elections). Additionally, a large part of the base has proven itself quite gullible with regards to conspiracy theories and other (generally quite obvious) disinformation, especially when they play on existing fears/biases (e.g., schools turning their kids trans).
That isn't to say that Democrat voters are perfect, either. There's certainly a significant undercurrent of left-wing media that is built on fear and hatred - one only need to see how well conditioned women are nowadays to believe that every man they see wants to harm/rape them or how men spending time around children are presumed pedophiles - but it's not quite as prevalent and certainly not as targeted at political affiliation.
It's completely fair to point out that Democrats often fail to address issues facing average people, or when they do, it's done poorly. That's sad, and it needs to change. However, where I get confused is how Republican policy almost universally harms the average person, and yet they get a free pass, even to the degree that I've seen a large cohort of people blame the Democrats for failing to save them from a bad Republican policy/action without passing any of the blame to the Republicans that passed it (e.g., tariffs, DOGE cuts, etc.).
It pains me to see the anemic Democrat response to some of the batshit insane stuff the Republicans do (especially now), but I fear it's largely because the Democratic party is just as much owned and operated by moneyed interests. While the Republicans are stabbing us to death, the best we can hope from the Democrats is to put down the knife without providing any bandages.
> If your answer really is that they're just racist and stupid... then I would encourage you to consider whether your opinion is more informed from social media and news than meeting actual people.
I mean... Yes? But there's a dynamic that's really hard to get past which is --
1. I do not actually think that half the country is racist and stupid, but most of my political interactions are unfortunately not with real people, they are with the media, a necessity if you want to stay informed, and if I want to hear the actual thoughts of the leaders of our country, it's not going to give me good impressions.
2. Many of the actual people in my life who are conservative have become MAGA-pilled, and do talk the same way folks do online. I'm a humanist, I empathize deep down with the nature of humans, and the death of small town / manufacturing America, etc. but I will say that I think that over time the lines between online and offline are blurring. Recently spent time with people I've known along time in meat space who talked about how smart and informed they were for knowing the "truth" about vaccines, how stupid the other side was for being in a ideological bubble. How terrible it was that 2 year olds were going to school and coming back Trans. And just in general the kind of anti-lib discourse that you would find on Twitter.
Sadly I think this idea that the extreme polarization of our country is limited to online discourse is becoming less and less true over time.
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Anybody who considers themselves an American needs to be calling for a full stop to all activities of this administration, including impeachment and conviction. It's clear that our country and our government have many problems. They have festered over years, causing the frustration and pan-society feelings of disenfranchisement that drove Trumpism. But at this point it's clear that regardless of all the "4d chess", there is no reforming going on here - just a wholesale destruction and fire sale of our country at the behest of the same entrenched interests that have been pulling the strings the entire time. This is like going to the hospital for a broken bone, and they start calling surgeons to salvage your organs.
can you stop and read the full article and maybe give some attention to the possibility that this one thing is maybe not a bad idea?
Okay, done. All I saw in the article is the usual hypocritical invocation of austerity to justify destruction and looting. Is there a substantive argument you would like to put forward why this action would be a good thing? Or is this just the same tired projection-based trend of implying that the people opposing the open fire sale of our country are the misinformed ones?
did you miss the part where the biggest contractor on the project was shady as fuck?
> Oshkosh encountered delays and engineering problems during early manufacturing runs, and disagreements — and accusations of corporate dishonesty — among executives plagued the production process, The Washington Post reported in December.
> Oshkosh was supposed to have delivered about 3,000 vehicles by the end of 2024. Instead it had provided roughly 100 and raised its prices as the Postal Service ordered additional EVs
the corporate "looting" as you put it, has already happened. and this part of the omnibus bill stems the bleeding. without any particular judgement on the rest of the omnibus bill, and yes, i believe there is probably looting in the rest of the bill.
you should support this part of the bill, if you believe the things that you claim to, such as not having the nation on open fire sale.
I didn't miss that. I'm just not going to get stuck focusing on mild criticism as a justification for causing another new problem, especially one that is seemingly worse. As I acknowledged in my original comment, our government has massive problems that have festered - like cost overruns and incompetent/incestuous management of private contractors. But despite whatever premium they extracted, they actually did deliver real vehicles which are in use right now. If the unit cost is ridiculous going forward, the USPS should put out a new bidding process for new vehicles compatible with the already built infrastructure. If the additional cost of EV vs gasoline is too high (which I doubt given all of the stop-starts), then they should hold off buying more and prioritize which areas they really make sense for. Whatever the case, they certainly should not be scrapping the current vehicles and the supporting infrastructure that was built!
Scrapping them does nothing to right that wrong (that money is gone), while setting up up the government for the next con job - the USPS still needs vehicles. The graft has not "happened" - it is happening, repeatedly. The only reason there are cost cutting measures in this bill is that it can avoid larger congressional processes by being plausibly "revenue neutral". This is one of the reasons why Trump's championed TCJA included tax increases in subsequent years - to be able to call the whole thing revenue neutral. In this context, whenever "savings" are being championed it is really just making a justification for giving it away somewhere else, and such "savings" are likely going to leave the government in a poorer position and having to spend even more later - akin to a high interest loan, but it's not even in terms of simple finances but rather diminished capabilities putting them even further at the mercy of the next set of contractors.
Great. I'm "calling for a full stop", and nothing is happening. Now what?
Whatever you do don't start drinking again!
Well. That's what Americans voted for. What right do you have to demand them to stop?
We don't have a strategic referendum every four years and shut up otherwise.
Based on Trump's shotgun approach of contradictory positions and statements that promised everything to everyone, plus the completely uninspiring alternative option, it's not clear what Americans actually voted for. I have talked to many people that sheepishly admit they voted for Trump, yet lament that what he is doing is not at all what they thought he would do.
So my point is that the opposition here is not just the usual partisan squabbling. People should not think that waiting for 2/4 years is going to passively solve the problem like the regular changing of the buntings. Rather people need to realize the speed and brazenness these societal arsonists are moving, and demand their congresspeople stand up (versus the stochastic death threats from the social media addled nutsos, bots, etc) and put a stop to this. Congress shouldn't be voting on a big ugly omnibus spending bill written by special interests, rather they should be browbeaten into focusing on impeachment.
> Congress shouldn't be voting on a big ugly omnibus spending bill written by special interests, rather they should be browbeaten into focusing on impeachment.
Not to mention standing up in Congress, and reminding each other to actually read what they're voting on, like MTG a few weeks ago realizing the effects of a bill she voted for but hadn't read.
You know that is offensively ableist to say that she hadn't read the bill just because she cannot read. They have the best children's illustrators on the job.
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I hope the spite is worth it for all the wasted money for anyone who voted for this.
at least in the case of canoo the money was already wasted (see the history of canoo). the oshkosh vehicles are incredibly sensible, but very (irrationally?) unpopular and already beset with cost overruns. If you look at it, its not hard to guess why theyre unpopular. the success of the usmail ev program was by no means guaranteed; and if the us mail goes with a COTS unit (ev or otherwise), it's probably going to be more cost effective in any case.
Those who voted for this will think whatever their extremely distorted media diet will tell them. After all Trump/God works in mysterious ways, so they might ask: who knows what the grander plan behind it all is? The notion of Trump playing 4D chess is basically the same concept.
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